Should Tiger have incurred a two stroke penalty on the 13th hole in the first round at The Masters?
Tiger Woods, Jeev Milkha Singh and Stewart Cink all landed the 13th green in two on day one at Augusta. Tiger and Stewart both missed their eagle putts. Tiger walked up to his ball, marked and lifted it, then looked around for Jeev. After getting Jeev’s attention, Tiger pointed at his own marker as if to ask “is that in your way?” Indeed, he ended up moving his marker off the line and Jeev made his eagle. So the question is:
Did Tiger give advice to Jeev by indicating the line of the putt? The USGA defines advice as: any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke. The penalty for a breach of either rule 8-1 or 8-2 is two strokes.
Any rules wizards out there? I’m not trying to be a narc, I just like to understand the rules as best I can.
April 10, 2009 at 12:25 pm
If he had indicated for Singh to putt over that mark, then it would be advice. If he was asking if the mark may be in the way, I don’t believe that’s advice because he was not attempting to influence Singh in any way or to get information on Singh’s read for his own purposes.
April 10, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Yes, if Tiger in fact indicated that his mark was on the line of Singh’s putt, whether it was or not, then Tiger would be providing him advice.
I had this penalty imposed on me in a match that I went ahead and move my ball on putt head to the right without being asked to.
To keep from being called on this penalty a player should not move his/her mark until asked to..then a questions can be asked on what direction to move it.
It is good to see that EVEN Tiger is human..geez..the rules of golf are rough sometimes, but fair most of the time.
April 10, 2009 at 7:45 pm
No – it is just good golf manners. He didn’t tell Singh anything – Tiger ASKED Singh if he wanted Tiger to move his ball. If Singh had said yes, Woods would have asked which direction he wanted the mark moved and possibly how far.
BG – are you sure you were penalized for “giving advice” ? The only time you are allowed to mark, then move your mark on your own is to repair a pitch mark.
April 10, 2009 at 7:51 pm
I think we need a USGA official to make the call. Seen any online?
April 10, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Courtney,
Yes, the rules official confirmed that if I moved my mark without being asked to I was providing advise, (good or bad) to my opponent that “I felt” his ball was going to roll over my mark thus indicating the line of the putt.
I think Tiger’s situation is more questionable, but probably falls in the same light if all rules officials think alike, which it looks like they do.
Thanks for allow me to expand upon this situation.
April 10, 2009 at 8:00 pm
I tweeted to @IHateToSlice on Twitter. Wendy may be able to help as she works for the USGA on rules education.
April 10, 2009 at 8:04 pm
I have contacted a few of the PGA members who are a member of the Business Golf Country Club who are rules officials to check out the Tiger ruling..hopefully they will chime in here.
April 10, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Ok – there is still a difference in what you did and what we do 99% of the time.
You moved your marker without being asked – Tiger asked if Singh wanted the marker moved. That doesn’t mean that the marker was on Singh’s line – it could just be in a bad spot for his line of sight. I’m guessing that you usually ask – but this one time you forgot or just assumed he wanted it moved.
Goofy rules sometimes, eh ?
April 10, 2009 at 8:32 pm
My opinion is that neither Tiger nor Mr. Business Golf incurred any penalty. In both these cases the action of moving the marker to the side was an act of courtesy with no intention of providing advice on the putting line to the fellow competitor.
999Q
April 11, 2009 at 2:11 am
No penalty:
20-1/11 Ball-Marker in Position to Assist Another Player
Q. A player marks the position of his ball on the putting green and the ball-marker is so located that it might be of assistance to the opponent or a fellow-competitor in lining up his putt. Accordingly, the player prepares to move his ball-marker one or two clubhead-lengths to the side, but the opponent or fellow-competitor says he wants the ball-marker left where it is. What is the ruling?
A. The player is entitled to move his ball-marker to the side. The opponent or fellow-competitor may not insist on its being left where it is in view of the purposes of Rules 8-2b and 22-1.
April 11, 2009 at 2:59 am
Thanks for all the great feedback. I’m thinking I agree with MrBusinessGolf. Had Tiger just moved it without asking Singh, maybe it’s a different story, but that communication – no matter how subtle – could be advice (or mind game sabotage).
Harry Longshanks – I read that, too, and interpreted it to mean the player moving the mark’s intention is not to get out of the line, but to inhibit any possible help the mark could be to his competitor lining up the putt. The putter cannot insist on leaving the mark there, but they can request to have it moved.
I’d still really like to hear from a USGA rules official on this.
April 13, 2009 at 12:49 am
I dont believe a penalty should be incurred here. I agree it is just good golf manners. I have never seen a player want to keep a mark on their line so they could use it to help the ball get into the cup.
But again…rules are rules in golf. We saw what happened to harrington in round three because he addressed the ball, and even after he stepped away it was still considered a penalty because he had already addressed the ball before it moved due to wind.
April 18, 2009 at 5:20 pm
If he had moved his marker without being told by Jeev than Tiger could have been hit with a stroke penalty for giving advice on the break of the putt. Only move your marker if you are asked by the opponent. Happy Golfing
April 20, 2009 at 4:09 am
Some people have an unhealthy obsession with rules. ;o)
April 21, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Great Story, I enjoyed it very much!
May 3, 2009 at 3:49 am
Good post. Really like it.
May 4, 2009 at 10:40 pm
No penalty, it is a perfectly legal and courteous practice to determine if a marker will be in the way.
May 10, 2009 at 9:58 pm
If he asked “do you want it moved?” no penalty. if he asked “is this in your way?” penalty. The second question directly points out that it may be in the way. My 2 cents
May 19, 2009 at 11:19 am
hey for Thanks for all the great feedback.and I enjoyed it very much & My opinion is that neither Tiger nor Mr. Business Golf incurred any penalty
May 28, 2009 at 5:54 am
Great post…thanks for sharing with us..